"Progressers" say California is an apocalyptic mess of soaring unemployment, mass foreclosures and political paralysis. It's dysfunctional. It's ungovernable. It's the poster child for general malaise. And they blame it all on voting. More specifically, on the ballot initiative process which California made famous.
And they suggest that if you use ballot initiatives to improve your government, you might wind-up just like Californians. Well how bad would that be?
This week's cover story in Time Magazine says California gave us microchips, freeways, blue jeans, tax revolts, extreme sports, energy efficiency [CA's per capita energy consumption index has gone down steadily for the last 40 years while the U.S. overall has gone up], health clubs, Google searches, Craigslist, iPhones, and the Hollywood vision of success is still the cutting edge of the American future—economically, environmentally, demographically, culturally, and maybe politically.
It's the greenest and most diverse state, the most globalized in general and most Asia-oriented in particular at a time when the world is heading in all those directions. It's also an unparalleled engine of innovation, the mecca of high tech, biotech, and now cleantech. In 2008, California's wipeout economy attracted more venture capital than the rest of the nation combined. Somehow its hostile business climate has nurtured Google, Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Facebook, Twitter, Disney, Cisco, Intel, eBay, YouTube, MySpace, The Gap, and countless other companies that drive the way we live. That's exactly the kind of "Progress" we need.
Of course it's just a coincidence that California also has no modern streetcars. The only places in America that do are Tacoma, Seattle, and Portland (bow to the northwest when you say that).
Vote YES ON ISSUE 9. It will make us more like California.
Well, since issue 9 isn't just about streetcars, but about all light-passenger rail I think the more compelling fact is that Cincinnati is the 2nd largest city without any light passenger rail. The largest? That would be Detroit. Is that our aspiration?
ReplyDeleteFunny thing about the green argument is that somewhere around 1% of COAST supporters even support energy efficiency for other than personal financial reasons. They do not believe in climate change or support the city's green initiatives.
ReplyDelete"Funny thing about the green argument is that somewhere around 1% of COAST supporters even support energy efficiency for other than personal financial reasons."
ReplyDelete98.275% of all statistics are made up. What a joker.
Only 50% of the pro-streetcar Cincinnatians for Progress leadership team even lives in Cincinnati. Don't listen to Bluegrass Bobby Maly!
ReplyDeleteStop the Streetcar. Stop big money, outside, special interest meddling in our City's affairs. Vote YES on Issue 9!
CAAST -
ReplyDeleteThe campaign fundraising numbers are out. Where are you? We need to discuss our little bet. You know, the one where you claimed that COAST was a special interest group backed with big money.
Why is the desire for voting just limited to passenger rail? Whyt are we not voting on every allegedly wasteful expenditure that COAST can ID? Most of all, why is it just rail, instead of roads and other transportation infrastructure?
ReplyDelete"Stop the Streetcar. Stop big money, outside, special interest meddling in our City's affairs. Vote YES on Issue 9!"
Look, I understand the Rovian political calculation where you attack someone's strengths (attack a person who helps kids by insinuating they are creepy around kids), but is this a joke? You people who want to stop the streetcar or any other passenger rail want the citizenry to believe Cincinnati is a dead, crime-ridden hellhole that needs jails, police, and a wall to protect Anderson and Colerain Townships. The whole initiative is predicated on a dead or dying city.
If COAST's knowledge of the city was based on anything other than the local news (person murdered in scary neighborhood - footage at 11), you would see the city is doing a lot better than most other Rust Belt cities, even today. That's because of strong neighborhoods (like Westwood, Hyde Park, Pleasant Ridge, and Clifton) and job creators like P&G, UC, and the hospitals. COAST doesn't want these places to be linked and strong; they want them to be isolated and surrounded by parking lots so the entire city can be dismantled.
Bris Chotrz? You hide behind a ridiculous pseudonym and throw bombs meant to tear down this city. As I asked earlier, why is rail transit attacked so specifically? There is nothing inherently more expensive about rail than roads. If there are cost differences, it is because of ridiculous government subsidies that benefit the the car industry. As one author wrote, "Public transit and walkable neighborhoods are necessary for the creation of a country where families and communities can flourish." (see http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2009/04/209). Roads do not deserve special treatment, and I have no idea why they receive it.
I have yet to hear an argument for Issue 9 that is not predicated on Cincinnati being a dying, crime-ridden place. I hope that the people who live in the city do not believe that, but I fear that they will. The more afraid we are, the more COAST can destroy this city.
What a pathetic argument, all those inventions came from private companies and developers.
ReplyDeleteMicrochips and silicon valley didn't flourish because special interest groups pushed ballot initiatives and referendum voting....California's government floundered and caved due to that process and it's plain to say. Of course COAST would ignore it though, we've seen that the leadership at COAST isn't too bright.
In case you folks haven't seen it, check out what COAST's partner in politics Chris Smitherman had to say about his own ballot initiative, even he called this referendum voting style "Political corruption."
http://caast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/10/smitherman-says-own-amendment-deceiving.html
CAAST, there you are. I'll be waiting for my ice cream sundae.
ReplyDeleteAs I predicted, C4P raised big special interest money from those who will personally profit from the building of the streetcar. COAST, which you claim to be a big money special interest group raised 100 times less than C4P, which is led by outside meddler Bluegrass Bobby Maly. Follow the money folks.
Stop big special interest money. Stop outside meddling in City affairs. Stop the streetcar. Vote YES on Issue 9.
"Why is the desire for voting just limited to passenger rail? Whyt are we not voting on every allegedly wasteful expenditure that COAST can ID?"
ReplyDelete- What a ridiculous argument Chris. I guess you're saying if COAST is unable to stop every wasteful government expenditure they shouldn't bother to stop any wasteful government expenditure.
"The whole initiative is predicated on a dead or dying city."
-No, your whole argument is based on a scare tactic. The threats from the progressors about the future of Cincinnati going into the toilet if we don't have a downtown choo choo are ridicuous. C4P are nothing more than a bunch of chiken littles. The sky will fall without a trolley for all white urban professionals. The only people talking about a dead or dying city are the pro-streetcar progressors.
"What a ridiculous argument Chris. I guess you're saying if COAST is unable to stop every wasteful government expenditure they shouldn't bother to stop any wasteful government expenditure."
ReplyDeleteWay to avoid the question, Bris.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteRail is singled out because it is absolutely the most expensive way to transport a person between any 2 points. More on that tomorrow. Granted, it's a pleasant way to travel if you can afford it. But we can't right now.
What a dark viewpoint you have. Lack of rail is death? The whole initiative is predicated on being a good city first, and adding amenities later. That means taking care of basics like safety, roads, water, sewers, etc. Since our house is very much not in order when it comes to basics, we have no business taking on debt to fund luxuries like a streetcar.
We need to get back to a position of economic sustainability again. That has historically been Cincinnati's greatest strength. And it can be again if we lay off the cheesy gimmicks for while, and focus on our core services.
CAAST,
ReplyDeleteWay to avoid your completely false characteristic of COAST as a big-money backed special interest group, when it is fact C4P that meets the standard.
Way to ignore the fact that big money special interests that stand to directly profit from streetcar construction are funding your side's campaign.
Way to ignore the fact that you are led by a meddling outsider in Bluegrass Bobby Maly.
I want my ice cream sundae.
"I guess you're saying if COAST is unable to stop every wasteful government expenditure they shouldn't bother to stop any wasteful government expenditure."
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm actually saying is that if COAST were intellectually honest they would try to determine what would actually be the cheapest form of transportation and support that, rather than supporting roads over rail automatically. If you take the subsidies roads receive, the many times they need to be repaired, the government handouts to car companies, and the ridiculousness that was Cash for CLunkers do you really think our road addiction is cheaper? That is why I am forced to believe COAST hates trains and supports roads because it is bad for the city but good for the suburbs.
"The threats from the progressors about the future of Cincinnati going into the toilet if we don't have a downtown choo choo are ridicuous."
Although I believe the city would be better off with trains, I do not believe the city would be screwed. I still have not heard an argument that is not based on the city needing to focus on stopping the horrible crime and build a jail etc.
Between your joke moniker, your tone, and your reference to the streetcar project as a downtown choo choo (you are either a liar or an idiot if you focus only on the streetcar, BTW), I can only believe you are not a serious or reasonable person, but rather a person who wants to have some fun on the internet and throw bombs. You are no better than the idiots on the left who call people fascists or teabaggers for thinking taxes may be too high. You are also proof of this theory:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
Bris,
ReplyDeleteI never accused COAST of having "big money" behind them, rather I accused them of being a special interest group, which they are. It's funny you to like to point out "outsiders" yet you completely ignore that the ballot language was written by an Anderson Township lawyer who sought fit to drive downtown to campaign for something even he can't vote on and something that will affect a city that eve he doesn't live in. People like Bobby Mally became involved when they realized how far reaching and consequential this ridiculous charter amendment was for the entire tri-state area.
I don't know if you remember Chris Finney, but he's the guy who wrote the language of Issue 9, the very language that his own political partner, Chris Smitherman, calls "political corruption." http://caast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/10/smitherman-says-own-amendment-deceiving.html
As for the ice cream sundae, we never agreed to to any terms of a bet and you never specified where the ice cream sundae was from. I also never claimed COAST had "big money" behind it, just that they were a special interest group and that they are.
Mark, I'm glad there are reasonable people on your side, because Bris Chortz is ridiculous. Nonetheless, here is where we disagree most:
ReplyDelete"That means taking care of basics like safety, roads, water, sewers, etc."
Why are roads basics but trains cannot be? Building giant mega-highways to the suburbs will end up requiring more roads. Trains allow density, whereas roads allow building further out which then just requires more roads (see I-75).
"And it can be again if we lay off the cheesy gimmicks for while, and focus on our core services."
I don't see trains as a cheesy gimmick. I see them as a way to build smaller, tighter-knit communities. I reference an article I mentioned earlier once again.
"Pro-highway, anti-transit, anti-pedestrian policies work against the core beliefs of American conservatives in another and even more important way: they create social environments that are hostile to real community. Once again, the ways in which automobile-oriented development prevents communities from forming are too numerous to list exhaustively. They range from the very obvious to the very subtle."
This is what I really and truly believe. I feel like giving roads this great advantage that we do is not nearly as cheap as you believe, and is bad for our community. Issue 9's goal is not to stop the streetcar, it is to stop any and all rail development in Cincinnati. You know it, I know it, we all know it. I just don't understand why giving government resources to one transit form is ok and another is a gimmick.
CAAST -
ReplyDeleteYou either have a bad memory, or you are a liar. On this very blog on October 20th you posted these exact words:
"Whoops Bris, you messed up here:
FACT: CfP is a special interest group with big money behind it and is lead by an outside meddler who does not even live in this City.
Think you meant that COAST is a special interest group with big money behind it..."
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=721799301702528076&postID=9173007109866912397
I want my ice cream sundae.
And I did specify what kind of ice cream sundae.
ReplyDeleteI specifically said, "It's the kind of ice cream sundaue you could eat on a Metro bus, if you weren't a YP snob."
Chris,
ReplyDeleteI checked out your profile. Let me get this straight - You don't even live in Cincinnati?
Sorry buddy, the pro-streetcar Cincinnatians for Progress told us that people who live outside the City limits aren't allowed to have a say in this fight, or express an opinion. They're against outside meddling in Cincinnati's affairs (unless they're for it as in with Bluegrass Bobby Maly).
Even though I want to stop addressing Bris, I can't ignore this slight:
ReplyDelete'I specifically said, "It's the kind of ice cream sundaue you could eat on a Metro bus, if you weren't a YP snob."'
When I was a law student at UC, I took the bus from Silverton to work at the federal courthouse for a semester, and I found it pleasant and safe. I am not above using buses. However, buses do not subtract from the need for more and wider roads, like passenger rail can. I am aware the streetcar may need those roads, but Issue 9 will stop all passenger rail. This isn't about just YP's. This is about sane, reasonable transportation policies that cover multiple modes and is not just, "build more roads, then widen them, then repave, then repeat."
Bris: I haven't updated my profile in a while. Thanks for the reminder. I now live in Pleasant Ridge, which is also where I was raised. I am not a carpetbagger, I was exiled to Dayton.
ReplyDeleteMetro hybrid buses are cheaper, greener, and can run the same exact rout as the proposed streetcar without th need to widen roads" that you keep threatening.
ReplyDeleteThe only difference is that they're not hip or trendy. YP's don't want to ride on buses with everyday joes when they can have the taxpayers pay to build and operate a special streetcar for them.
Ouch, Dayton? I feel for you, honestly. Nobody should ever have to spend any extended period of time in Dayton for any reason. Welcome back to Cincy.
ReplyDeleteCalifornia has no passenger rail? Really?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I really don't care what people who don't live in Cincinnati think about our transit.
"Also, I really don't care what people who don't live in Cincinnati think about our transit."
ReplyDeleteWell then Scott, you'll have to ignore all of the opinions expressed by the pro-streetcar movement (Cincinnatians for Progress). Their Co-chair not only doesn't live in Cincinnati, he doesn't even live in the State of Ohio.
Ignore Bluegrass Bobby Maly. Stop outside meddling in Cincinnati affairs. Stop the streetcar. Vote YES on Issue 9.
Silicon Valley would not have been as successful if California did not have excellent rail. California was built and runs on rail. Industrial as well as passenger. Not Coast's failed California style referendum policy that has currently put it into financial distress. Issue 9 will kill any success Ohio may have for replicating California's growth from rail. Voting NO on 9 will keep Cincinnati and Ohio on track to success.
ReplyDelete